A coal-dependent India can't move to zero overnight: GE's Mahesh Palashikar

In a Q&A, the President of GE South Asia asserts that natural gas will bridge India's journey from coal to renewables, even as he points is massive potential in onshore wind energy

India has a potential to generate 600 Gw of onshore wind energy while we have hardly done 40-50 Gw, says Mahesh Palashikar, President of GE, South Asia, illustrating India’s scope not just for renewables but as a global innovation and manufacturing hub for turbine technology and components. He also says that natural gas will be the bridge in India’s journey from coal to renewables. One of GE’s two global innovation and development centres outside the US, is in Bengaluru, developing aerospace and turbine designs and technologies.

Palashikar has worked across manufacturing, global supply chain, quality, and projects within GE’s healthcare, power, and renewable Energy businesses. Prior to joining GE in 2000, he spent more than a decade with Philips Electronics in its industrial and automotive electronics business in India. He is an engineer by trade, with a degree in Cost and Management Accounting from India. Edited excerpts of Palashikar's discussion with S Dinakar:

Can you update us on GE’s manufacturing activities, R&D and exports from India.

GE started in 1902 with a hydroelectric power plant, which in a way is a renewable energy power plant. Fifty per cent of the power that gets transmitted and distributed goes through GE technology. We have 11 large global manufacturing facilities in India across the energy spectrum.  So, for example, we have a wind turbine component manufacturing factory--two factories in fact, which have almost 75 per cent of the output exported for global consumption. GE has two large global research and technology centres--one in the US and the other in India--with almost 5,500 technologists and engineers.

Any new technologies that have come out of your Bengaluru centre in the recent past?

One is in aerospace, where we work on very advanced aerospace engine technology, and these are focused on the next generation of efficiency, lower carbon emissions, as well as the ability to use the cleaner fuel. So, it could be sustainable aviation fuel, or it could be future use of hydrogen. Wind turbine technology is a very significant area where we continuously focus on designing and developing wind turbine technologies that will offer the lowest cost of electricity generation. And this is specifically done for the Indian market because every geography in the world has different wind conditions. If you talk about the wind turbine blades, that is another technology where we have technology experts in Bangalore who design the blades .

Do you see any immediate potential for offshore wind or will this take time to come up in India?

Wind has potential both in the onshore and offshore spaces. You are looking at more than 600 gigawatts of potential that India has for onshore wind. If you look at offshore wind, the opportunity size 174 Gw. Now out of these 600 Gw, we have barely done 40-50 Gw. So you can just imagine how much there is more to achieve. Similarly, you know offshore India is just starting both on the East Coast and the West Coast. There are a few big projects. We have the initial bids and the discussions have started.

Why is this huge gap between 40 Gw and 600 Gw? I mean, is it because of the cost? Is it because it is more expensive than solar that wind has lagged?

Actually, if you look at wind, the utilisation percentages are much higher than solar. Typically for solar, if you install 100 megawatts, as an example, probably 20 per cent would be the utilisation, whereas in wind you can go up to 45 per cent. In natural gas you can go up to 64 per cent. Initially what has happened is wherever you had very high wind speeds, those sites have been captured and then the medium wind speeds have been captured. Now for the other potential that I mentioned which is untapped, you will need new technology solutions but these will be at different sites. The topography would be different. The wind speeds would be different and that is why as you bring newer and newer technology where what will happen is the rotor diameter will keep getting bigger. The hub height of the wind turbine hubs powers will keep getting bigger, but with those the untapped potential can be brought into reality.  

Very recently there was a policy document that MNRE released where it will focus on at least 8 Gw of demand per year for onshore wind. It is significant. The country probably has done 1 or 2 Gw, sometimes 3 GW in a great year. But that was a few years back when you had feed-in tariff system. Feed-in tariffs were given to increase the wind turbine market in India. We feel so bullish and excited about the growth that can be achieved in the wind turbine market size.

Which are the main states you think will capture the 600 Gw?

These are the typical 6-7 states--southern western states where the generation will happen. But that is not the only point. The generation may continue to happen in the southern western states but as the National Green Corridor of grid installations happens, states that do not have wind energy potential can achieve their renewable energy commitments by importing from other states. By 2030 if they want 500 gigawatts of total installed renewable complexity, that equally means 500 gigawatts of green corridor and the transmission distribution capacity as well.

The grid is the most critical. I mean you may have a 500 Gw capacity on ground but you won't be able to use it. What should be done to get India's grid going?

Renewable energy just by its nature is infirm. You have wind for a few hours, you'll have solar for a few hours. So it isn't a firm base load output. So the grid has to be able to dynamically balance the infirmity of the grid. And you as a consumer in your home or in your office or in the mall where you are shopping, should not feel the grid fluctuations and the frequency fluctuations.

While the government wants to increase the share of gas to 15 per cent of the energy mix for reasons of cost, gas fire generation has lagged. Gas costs have always come in the way. Where do you see the future for gas fire generation in India? What role will gas play in India's energy mix?

You cannot move India, which looks at 60-70 per cent dependence on coal-fired power generation, to zero overnight. It will go to zero but it will involve significant transition and natural gas can be one important bridge in that transition. We have huge capacity of installed gas turbines in India, 80-90 per cent of which would be GE gas turbine technology. But if you look at the capacity that is not utilised today, you have a great asset that is not running because the landed cost is higher. But it is less carbon-emitting than coal. So it is better in terms of the energy transition, and we will definitely have to work in terms of the gas supply ecosystem, but the landed cost has to be competitive. If we work on that, then it can be a very good bridge to allow us to have a mix. You can have some coal-fired power generation which will be needed. But then natural gas could allow you to have a hybrid combination. You could have wind plus solar and sometimes you can have natural gas. The other area I'd like to highlight is hydroelectric power generation. So you could also have wind, solar and hydroelectric power, which now also offers a very clean energy storage solution. Pumped hydro storage is another area where the levelised cost of electricity can come down.  

Pumped storage is globally among the most attractive alternatives for cheaper storage. What is GE doing in this space in India. Is it only on the turbine side for hydroelectric or is there anything else you are looking at?

Pumped hydro storage is cleaner than battery. Second, it is a proven means and the Western nations are going with huge volumes of pumped hydro storage capacity because they realise that it's a very good natural source with a lower levelised cost of electricity. As we speak, we are executing some pumped hydro storage projects as we believe it is a great complementing solution for round-the-clock hybrid. India is focused on more bids which will be round-the-clock power generation-- hybrid bids and pumped hydro storage fit very well within that--even from a cost perspective or a clean energy perspective.

The government’s PLI scheme, while focusing on new industries is leaning heavily on semiconductors, electronics, mobile phones, batteries and solar. But it left out wind or aerospace, which are also high-tech areas. Have you taken it up with the government on looking at PLIs in these sectors, given that they are clean and advanced technologies?

We also benefited in GE in our healthcare business from PLI. PLI has to be seen from a perspective that you give incentives for innovating and producing new technology. If you give PLI to wind or  aerospace technology, that makes us globally competitive to export more and India can be a hub for global consumption. Both are strategic benefits and we do represent to the government in terms of focusing on these opportunities as well.

Now that we have Gati Shakti, what more do you think India can do to improve its competitiveness at a global level? We haven't seen too much international participation in PLI.

PLI is only one element of global competitiveness. Landed cost is the element that Gati Shakti’s improvements can definitely help us with, because while manufacturing costs in India might be lower, you cannot have higher landed cost. You cannot take a longer time for finally delivering the product or the service at the customer site. If you look at some of the global competitive manufacturing locations, you will see these are also the areas in which they have made progress--be it logistics, be it ease of access, or be it speed of transporting from the ports or the airports. So, it will have to be a whole ecosystem.

Now coming to achieving net zero, does GE look at the aspect in India or South Asia as a separate unit or is it part of a global whole?

Both, actually. GE has very significant commitments globally. And by 2020, we achieved some of those commitments ahead of schedule. We also have 2030 commitments where we want to be net zero as a corporation and we similarly have it integrated. It can be the way our factories operate or it can be the way we design our products or it can be the considerations that go into the sustainable aviation fuel, whichever part of the business value chain that we work on.

Have you calculated scope on scope to emissions of your Indian operations currently?

Not specifically to India. We don't roll it up necessarily at a South Asia level.

But how do you plan to offset it then? What are your strategies to offset it in India. You say 2030, right?

Correct. So, the individual value chains and value streams that I mentioned to you, can be a product development value chain or a global supply value chain. It can also be a servicing value chain.

What was your last fiscal like? What was GE spending in India? What is the kind of investment you're bringing in?

I understand your question and can relate to it. But we don't publish our financial results for GE as an integrated entity in India. That is why it would not be appropriate to comment on that.

And finally on CCUS. I saw a report where it says most of the CCUS projects have not really worked except maybe Sleipner and Snow Whit and Norway. Do you see a future for CCUS in India?

Yes. And I think the CCUS is something that we offer as a solution. We offer technologies. Probably it is still to be executed at some of the projects. On hydrogen, NTPC, which is a power generating customer for us, we are working with them in terms of starting with a hydrogen blend along with the natural gas for their turbines. But those projects, as we speak, are taking shape.

Even the emission control that needs to be done for coal-fired power plants is something we stay focused on. About 60-70 per cent of power comes from that fuel today. So, the flu gas desulphurisation and some of the emission control technologies are other offering that we stay focused on because while you don't want to create emissions, you also want to control the emissions which are there today.